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Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas. Empty

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    Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

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    Topic Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by miko Fri May 07 2010, 23:25

    Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Although people give them the common names of Wimple piranhas and Lobetoothed piranhas they are not the real McCoy.

    The only 3 genera cataloged as “real” Piranhas are Pygocentrus, Pristobrycon and Serrasalmus.
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by CombiChrist Sat May 08 2010, 02:19

    Partly true. But following that genera (I guess you mean the Orti phylogeny), you should have excluded Pristobrycon striolatus also, for that species also is excluded in that DNA based phylogeny.

    On the other hand we should keep in mind that "piranha" is a common name attributed by the original S-Americans. And that name is exclusive attribuited to only the Pygocentrus genus, the others are called Pirambeba.


    Last edited by CombiChrist on Sun May 09 2010, 21:39; edited 1 time in total
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by CombiChrist Sat May 08 2010, 14:44

    That Orti phylogeny has later been confirmed by Freeman :

    Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas. Freema12

    Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas. Freema13
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by miko Thu May 13 2010, 08:13

    I will try to post a video pretty soon of Antonio Machado - Allison himself explaining why they are not "true" piranhas.
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by CombiChrist Thu May 13 2010, 14:19

    "True" piranhas is the common name only given to the Pygocentrus species. Not even the Serrasalmus and Pristobrycon genera are called "true" piranhas, but pirambebas.
    I will be interested in the video though Bowdown
    Always god to hear a scientific explanation instead of the fuzz about common names Smile
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    Topic the piranha video

    Post by miko Wed Jun 16 2010, 03:11




    In other words, if you say Pygopristis and Catoprion are piranhas you would have to say Metynnis, Myleus, Colossoma, Mylossoma,and Piaractus are piranhas too.
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by CombiChrist Wed Jun 16 2010, 09:23

    On the name piranhas, it's not about what wé call piranhas. Like Mr Machado Allison said, it's name attributed by the locals. But only for the genus Pygocentrus, others are called Pirambebas.
    Like he said also : it's not a scientific seperation, just cultural.
    If you look at the diets, all have a diet consisting of partly plant material and partly fish material.

    So what Machado is referring to, is not really the names attributed by locals, but the piranha "clade".
    That exists (till now) out of Serrasalmus, Pygocentrus and (partly) Pristobrycon.

    There are two problems rising with this. Fist of all the extincted Megapiranha paranensis. Look at the clades and you'll see the problem : excluding C.mento and P.denticulata, means also excluding M.paranensis.

    Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas. Gallery_11012_163_78305 The other problem exists in the Orti (and the Freeman) DNA phylogeny, showing that P.striolatus is more related to P.denticulata and C.mento, while other Pristobrycons are more related to Serrasalmus (though of course P.macullipinnis and P.careospinus were not examined in this research) :

    Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas. Gallery_11012_163_9776
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by ANDONI Mon Jul 12 2010, 07:47

    That is some very good information Combichrist, this is a great thread lets keep it going.
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by CombiChrist Mon Jul 12 2010, 13:14

    It's a very old thread that will exist forever I guess. The word "piranha" in itself has been used for so many different menaings, that the confusion is always there.
    For example this, the clade name and common name are used in this topic as if they were the same.

    Like many people said before me : forget about piranhas and pirambebas, stick to the scientific names Wink
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by ANDONI Thu Jul 15 2010, 09:34

    CombiChrist wrote:It's a very old thread that will exist forever I guess. The word "piranha" in itself has been used for so many different menaings, that the confusion is always there.
    For example this, the clade name and common name are used in this topic as if they were the same.

    Like many people said before me : forget about piranhas and pirambebas, stick to the scientific names Wink


    This thread should last forever, what a great thread about the species we all love. Nice Thread
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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by hastatus Thu Jan 05 2012, 01:01

    miko wrote:Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Although people give them the common names of Wimple piranhas and Lobetoothed piranhas they are not the real McCoy.

    The only 3 genera cataloged as “real” Piranhas are Pygocentrus, Pristobrycon and Serrasalmus.

    I want to clear up some misconceptions and errors in replies to this thread.

    Ivan is correct in summation that wimpel (correct spelling) piranha (Catoprion) and the lobetoothed piranha (Pygopristis denticulata) are not 'real McCoy'.

    Regarding Antonio's remarks, this is where it gets dicey. Science doesn't use common name except marginally when it comes to species. In otherwords, when the common name is used in description to a scientific name. In case, majority of the genera is loosely called piranha. Often overlooked is the Myers (1972) definition of "piranha" and "caribe". Myers limited the name to the most dangerous piranhas. Namely Pygocentrus. This definition is used mostly in laws and statutes. Not necessarily science. Though one could argue why it should also be used in science as well.

    At OPEFE, I chose to use Myers definition because it makes more sense. Native, local people are the ones that use common names most frequently. As Myers stated, when you try to pin down the fisherman on what kind of piranha it is, they will either say a verdadero (meaning TRUE) or give it another localized name if its one of the other ones that are thought to be more harmless.

    Ivan is most familiar with Venezuelan caribes because he lives in Venezuela and fishes for them along with George Fear.

    As for combi remarks: So what Machado is referring to, is not really the names attributed by locals, but the piranha "clade". That exists (till now) out of Serrasalmus, Pygocentrus and (partly) Pristobrycon. There are two problems rising with this. Fist of all the extincted Megapiranha paranensis. Look at the clades and you'll see the problem : excluding C.mento and P.denticulata, means also excluding M.paranensis.

    He's looking at this entirely wrong and a narrow focus. In order to understand Dr. Machado-Allison, you have to understand where science is coming from. Megapiranha is simply a partial jaw. Not much to go on. It could be an extinct piranha or just another pacu that has piranha-like teeth. Like those found in Tometes, etc. We don't know. As for the term Piranha Clade, it means just that. An association with "true piranhas" ie., piranha clade and those that are not in terms of DNA. Doesn't mean DNA proves they are a "TRUE" piranha by the Myers definition, but certainly does help understand more what piranhas are.



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    Topic Re: Catoprion mento and Pygopristis denticulata are not piranhas.

    Post by hastatus Thu Jan 05 2012, 06:38

    David M. Schleser asked that I post his remarks on this thread:

    They can read more about this in my book; 2nd edition;

    DNA studies seem to have shown unequivocally that both of them are almost definitely "true" in the sense of being monophyletic. Pygopristis has long been thought of as a real piranha - one of the 4 genera normally attributed to that common name. But until recently the jury was out on Catoprion. However the aforementioned studies indicate that it should be included in an evolutionary grouping with Pygopristis denticulatus and Pristobrycon striolatus. If this proves to be true it will have to be considered a highly evolved "real" piranha, amd P. striolatus would need to be removed from genus Pristobrycon (something that has been suggested on strictly anatomic grounds)

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